The New Meeting Room Or Write Your Crap Here
posted by Heather | 7:39 AM
Mocha Monologues
A delicious blend of dark roasted thoughts, with a hint of sugar and spice.
- What life is about...
- Life as a Marriage Counselor
- What is wrong with my subconscious brain!?!?!?
- Forgiveness
- Blessings
- The Pains of Learning Discipline
- Glorious Weekend
- Throwing up on the Dental Hygienist
- You Had a Bad Day...
- The promised photo
14 Comments:
Dear Ms. Fargo,
How are you? I'm well, thanks. The last time I was in Fargo was two summers ago for a wedding, and it was 95 degrees outside. It's fun to wear a suit in 95 degree weather. I did take some pictures of downtown Fargo, which was a lot cooler than I expected.
Andy
ooooh! i love what you've done with the place. so roomy. i assume everything is where it was before? all right. let me get some snacks from the kitchen and i'll be right back. i hear the ben & jerry's screaming my name. one second...
as i have thought about it, and if you're truly "in" on this, i would like to hear from you for a bit. i'm curious exactly what effect this conversation is having as it is starting to spill over into your heart and mind and from their into your physical world. because for some reason, once you start getting ahold of this, it can't help but begin to completely dismantle your world. for the better.
i've done enough jabbering for a bit. how is it affecting your work life? your home life? your church life? and any other life you have?
after this, i'll give you a couple of conversations i've had with others within this community that were major stepping stones in developing this line of thought as well as exfoliating the old line of tought.
as well as erin. has this begun affecting your life at all?
Hello Mr. Monday,
Thanks for the note. I'm okay - thanks for asking. Yes, I'm sure it's fun to wear a suit in 95 degree weather. Today it's like a SAUNA outside. Even though it's only in the 70's, the humidity is SO high that you can hardly walk the air is so think - it's like, um, bread pudding outside - that's the consistency of the air. I have to be honest, this is the most humid day I've ever encountered in my life...and I'm from Iowa.
Have a lovely day.
Ms. Fargo
Jon,
I guess I'm still struggling. I'm not sure I can subscribe to your line of thought completely at this point.
That said, this discussion is having a huge impact on my position here at the ministry. Again, when I'm working with the people from our maternity home, I'm hit with law, law, law, and I want to buck it faster than you can say "stone tablets." I'm with you on the line of thinking that people have to make their own mistakes, and all we can do is guide them, and not tell them what God thinks they need to be doing. Because, I agree, God asks people to do stuff that's WAY out of the box. And, I'm not saying he asks people to live together, but he can certainly use it for their good. I don't believe for one minute that the only thing that will come from it is lost blessings, as a couple of these people say.
So, I guess what it comes down to is that I really like grace. And it's forgotten about in our Christendom. I keep coming back to the thief on the cross next to Jesus - his entire life was full of sin, and at the last moment before death, he asked to be remembered, and Jesus granted him eternal life.
I think what all this comes down to, if I may sum it up in my opinion, is what is healthy behavior? Is divorce permissible? According to Paul, EVERYTING is permissible, but you're going to have a mess afterwards, and scars, and hurt, and guilt. Is having an affair permissible? Again, the Bible speaks clearly that it's wrong - but why? - because it's not healthy - it hurts people, and families, and communities. I'm watching in right now in people's lives. If we look at why God gave us guidelines, it's not because he just wants us to do this and not do that, it's because he knows what's healthy and safe for us. It's just like the dietary guidelines he gave the Jews in the OT. They were there to keep the people healthy - because God knew what was best for them. I think this is the underlying issue.
H
beautifully and wonderfuly said. i think, as well, that is the underlying issue. if god wants people of his to be everywhere in the world, then the people he made us inside and the things we are "naturally" going to gravitate towards and find strength and enjoyment from are going to be different for everyone. and only by being honest with ourselves about what we truly enjoy and find life from, even if it's unpopular, is going to lead us to life. real abundant life.
but at the same time, i do agree that some things are not healthy. but i hardly ever grow as much as when i make a mistake on my own and learn from it. i find i don't grow at all when i have a burning desire to do something in my heart, but i don't act on it because someone else doesn't want me to. it just stays smoldering in my heart and resentment builds up because i feel like i don't have "permission" from the crowd at large to enjoy what i actually enjoy, or what i at least think i will enjoy. and only on the other side of the honest decision will i find the answer.
and, yeah. i have a hard time embracing my own line of thought some days. it goes against everything i have ever been taught about god. but the older i get and the more i study on my own, i find that when i am disappointing someone or failing, i am usually failing the religion and all of it's laws and rules and expectations and not god himself. honestly, having seen as much shit go down in the life of every single individual on the face of the planet, i'm not so sure god is shocked or surprised at anything i ever do. he just always knows how to put it into perspective with a gentle hand.
most of the condemnation i encounter is self propelled because that is how i learned my religion as a young pastor's kid. no matter what i did, someone, somehwhere was always quick to point out how something i was doing was wrong and offending someone and i should feel bad about that. only now am i shedding the thick layers of self-hatred i learned. i don't think it was intentional on any person's part, but it is something the enemy has certainly taken and twisted for his own purposes keeping me in a mental prison of fear.
so every day i try to renew my mind and shut out the voice of fear that would seek to keep me from shining. i try now to only do things and be engaged in things that i can back up wholeheartedly with every fiber of my being in subjection to god. and the more i do this, the more freedom i am finding to be this wild and eccentric being whom i believe i have been created to be. and the more i embrace the things in my life that actually bring me joy...love...peace...etc., i find my life and the light inside me grow brighter. but the more i listen to and obey men and their opinions of my life and who they think i should be, for some reason the light grows dim and my fruit starts to shrivel. i feel it. it worms its way in and sits down and begins to whisper in my ear as always, "see. i told you you were wrong. you know your place. your so bad. what's wrong with you? why do you always think you can enjoy things and people? why do you think you can draw near them when they are such SINFUL people? don't you know how that looks? what message are you sending?" and on and on and on and on until i want to curl up and cry or die. sometimes both. that is how i know now that that is the voice of the enemy.
because when i follow the voice of love. the voice of grace. the voice of acceptance. the voice of anti-fear. the more i find my light growing so bright that it spills out to EVERYONE around me. people at home. people at work. friends. strangers. seriously, everyone. when i throw off all obligation and thoughts of right and wrong and just follow the light and the situations where my fruit seems to grow best, in TRUTH, not according to poular opinion, i finally feel okay. i finally feel as if i can rest in the cross as my only plea before a holy god, and use WHOEVER i am right now at this moment for his kingdom. ugly, dirty, broken, imperfect... and i can finally feel like that's okay. i don't need to "do" or "not do" things to win god's favor, as the church culture has me convinced when i am there, god just loves me now. and it's okay. everything's okay. for once and for all, everything is alright. peace has been made with god. something i could NEVER do on my own. thank goodness jesus took care of it for me. even before i asked or recognized, it was done.
so, since you said you didn't want to base all of this off of one verse, here's another i ever hold before me now. and it is a major part of why i feel the way i feel about how to treat and approach other people.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
and that verse, is just the tip of another iceberg as pertains to church culture and the way we abuse each other and call it "god's will for your life." but i think i have filled this enough for today.
much love, jON
and as another quick little side thing i feel lead to share, the verse that immediately follows the others is this :"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces."
i feel lead to share this to put the former verses into a practical light. the more you learn and understand grace, do not expect those who love and live by law to be happy for you or what you have found. you wisely kept silent the other day, knowing, in your spirit, that if you were to throw out a pearl, it would have been trampled and they would have turned and tore you to pieces.
which leads to greater questions...
whose side am i really on?
and whose side do i actually want to be on?
Hello all! Sorry to be MIA for awhile. Yes, I have been following along with the conversation, but it has been in between going on vacation to Hawaii, recovering from said vacation, and getting buried in meaningless work at work.
Jon, once you said you were a pastor's kid growing up, this all began to make sense to me a little bit more. It seems like you are coming out of a very legalistic tradition, either in demonination or in your specific congregation. No matter what denomination/congregation, I think being a pastor's kid has to be one of the toughest things to have to be forced to go through. There are so many other people's expectations--i.e. church ladies, legalistic old men, the church board, the denominational overlords, what have you.
I was very fortunate that I believe I came out of a denomination that actually has a very balanced approach to sin. Meaning, there was not a lot of legalism in my church. (Going to school at Northwestern was a whole other matter). Not to say that we didn't learn the 10 commandments and the truths of scripture, but we didn't have a lot of "extra" stuff put upon us. People in our church will go to R rated movies and no one bats an eyelash, for instance. My parents didn't really drink growing up, but they did have A drink once in a while--giving us a healthy perspective on the use of alcohol.
Legalism I think is what you are having a beef with more than anything. Legalism=man's rules that are supposed to somehow perfect us even more than the things that God has already accomplished in us.
I HATE that crap!!!!!!!! It has always been and will always be one of my life's missions to move people beyond that.
You can ask Heather--she will vouch for this. I like to push people beyond their comfort zones.
So, when I read what you and Heather are saying, I definately resonate with all that is being said. I probably didn't have the obstacles to overcome to realize these truths that you did.
But one thing we all have to face is the reality that some Christians, Paul calls them "weaker brothers" have a hard time embracing their freedom in Christ. And worry about what those people think. And respecting them without caving into their legalism.
So, all this to say that I drink, I smoke cigars, I occassionally swear for emphasis (sometimes only a shit or fuck will really get the job done), etc.
I think that for Christians we always focus on what we shouldn't be doing--don't do this, don't do that.
And, yes, I think we need to acknowledge that God has laid down some guidelines. And I think the law is not completely abolished, per se, by Jesus' work. I was just reading Matthew 5:17 this morning about this very thing:
Passage Matthew 5:17-20:
The Fulfillment of the Law
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven"
The point being, there are standards and absolutes. If there aren't then we are relativistic, and I hate relativism as much as I hate legalism.
We need some balance, people, between too many man-made rules and no rules at all.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make before I interrupted myself multiple times is that I think our true failing as Christians is what we DON'T do.
Meaning, not caring for the sick, the aged, the homeless, the fatherless, the widows, the transvestites, the gay people, the drug addicts, the prostitutes, the white trash people [that was hard to write], the people who like Nascar [even harder], etc, etc.
I think that Jesus' real beef with the Pharisees was partly that he hated the Pharisees' complete disregard for these very real-life problems. They were more concerned about someone harvesting on the sabbath rather than starving to death, for example.
So, there needs to be balance in all of these things--in all of this thinking.
i entirely agree with you, erin. balance. which is the question, now, isn't it? what is the balance? and is the balance going to be the same for everyone? i can tell that the word relativism is a dirty word in your circles, but just what does it mean? when i use it, i guess i get a sense that everyone's experiences are different. and as such, their perceptions of the world are going to be different. and the way they react to those perceptions are going to be differnt. and so on and so forth. is this what you concieve of as relativism?
because the more i look into the new testament for rules, the less i find them. i know in acts the apostles laid down some. only four rules, to be exact as pertains to our physical actions. most everything else seems to fall under "matters of conscience". or even when we point at paul's lists of things, most of them have to do with less tangible things such as malice, rage, slander, etc. and with things so intangible, that's where i guess i dip into relativism. because two people could do the same thing or say the same thing, but at the heart level, it is possible to have two completely different meanings. and god knows them both. and knows what is truly in us.
but, yeah. for me, it has been a wild ride deconstructing my religion so that what comes out of me looks more like what i believe should be coming out of me. concern and love and care and healing for all the groups you mentioned and many you didn't. i just feel as if "christianity" has left me completely unprepared to deal with this hurting world in any sort of a tangible way that actually does real healing in people's lives on a day by day basis.
it's just hard for me living in a world of so many restraints when i believe god has given us the gift of freedom. i mean, we could truly be doing ANYTHING right now. we could walk away from this legalistic religion and do away with this capitalist system and all of our means of controlling and oppressing people NOW if we would. if we would.
but we do not. we continue to give this beast life and breath by our choices that we make every day. by continuing to work for its success and growth. by continuing to keep it going by buying into it. and i wonder how god really feels about that. and that makes me wonder how i really feel about that. and just what i should do about it.
would you two enjoy an afternoon visit some day? would you be down for a face to face? i haven't been to fargo in about 19 years, so it's about time. any interest?
That would be really fun, Jon. As long as my husband can come, it sounds good to me. We could even meet at my apartment.
of course chris can come.
speaking of... is he aware of what is transpiring here? has he been following along? have you been keeping him abreast? communication is essential during the dismantling process. as you take apart your world and put it back together again, you need to make sure that your spouse is aware of everything.
chris, what are your thoughts on everything or anything said so far?
and really, as i would love to hang out at your place, i would also love to go out to some cool place of your choosing to throw back a few and be comfortable with you in my natural habitat. as i will then be in comfortable in yours.
and if you could hook me up with a floor and a pillow and a blanket somewhere, doesn't even have to be your place, it would be appreciated.
i'm looking at the last week of july right now. probably a mon./tue. or tue./wed. trip. is that enough time to prepare?
can we row up our ducks in that amount of time?
You know what, Jon? I'm sorry, but I think I've had my fill of this conversation. I've lost the drive to discuss this subject. I have very much enjoyed our discussion up to this point, and I hope we can continue discussing something in the future. Can I use the word discuss any more in this short posting?!!?!?
no apologies necessary. i understand completely. thanks for the reconnection. i'm around if you ever have the desire for any slightly less socially acceptable theological conversation.
no rules. no boundaries. just love. and grace.
however, i will continue to interceed for you and hubby if you don't mind?
much love. jON
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