Blessings
So, this person I work with made a comment the other day that I'm not sure I agree with. She said that if we are disobedient, we will miss out on blessings as a result. Now, I don't recall reading that in the Bible anywhere. I'm thinking this is another guilt-inducing mind game that fundamental Christians play with people. Here's my line of thinking... We sin. Say, we steal our neighbor's garden gnome and put it in our garden. "Thou shalt not steal!" (Thunder...lightning bolts...) Okay. Well, the next day, we look out at our garden and realize that that gnome has been unrightly torn from it's home garden and we are responsible. So, we take the gnome back and apologize for our act of indiscretion. We also confess to God for our sin of stealing. The Bible says that ,"He remembers our sin no more." It's as far as the east is from the west. So, how could God withold blessings from us if he doesn't remember what we've done?!?!?! And isn't each day a new beginning, filled with grace?
That said, I do believe there are consequences for our sin - natural ones that flow from the different acts of sin we commit. If someone sleeps with a prostitute, they're going to have a very angry wife, and probably gonorrhea. They may even lose their family through divorce. That's a very serious consequence. It's also a very serious sin. If I lie, I lose someone's trust. That's not fun, either, but not as serious as the first example.
Now, do we get punished for our sin? Well, if we confess, God remembers it no more, so how could he punish us for something he has no recollection of?
What about being punished for disobeying? That's a different story. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God. They had to leave the Garden and work the soil and have episiotomies. (ouch)
Is disobeying sin? If disobeying is sin, is it the actual ACT that is the disobedience that is the sin, or is it simply that disobedience is sin? [Follow me on that one?] Because the ACT of eating the apple off the tree isn't sin. But the disobedience would be. Wouldn't it? Then, if disobedience is sin, then maybe we do get punished for disobedience. Maybe that's in the form of lost blessings? I still don't ever remember reading that in the Bible.
Or, does grace cover it all? [For believers - not unbelievers, because we know he punishes unbelievers, at least at the Final Judgment]
Hmmmm.
Back to blessings. The Bible tells us that we do not have because we do not ask, not because we chose to be disobedient.
I've talked myself into a corner, I can no longer think straight...
That said, I do believe there are consequences for our sin - natural ones that flow from the different acts of sin we commit. If someone sleeps with a prostitute, they're going to have a very angry wife, and probably gonorrhea. They may even lose their family through divorce. That's a very serious consequence. It's also a very serious sin. If I lie, I lose someone's trust. That's not fun, either, but not as serious as the first example.
Now, do we get punished for our sin? Well, if we confess, God remembers it no more, so how could he punish us for something he has no recollection of?
What about being punished for disobeying? That's a different story. Adam and Eve were punished for disobeying God. They had to leave the Garden and work the soil and have episiotomies. (ouch)
Is disobeying sin? If disobeying is sin, is it the actual ACT that is the disobedience that is the sin, or is it simply that disobedience is sin? [Follow me on that one?] Because the ACT of eating the apple off the tree isn't sin. But the disobedience would be. Wouldn't it? Then, if disobedience is sin, then maybe we do get punished for disobedience. Maybe that's in the form of lost blessings? I still don't ever remember reading that in the Bible.
Or, does grace cover it all? [For believers - not unbelievers, because we know he punishes unbelievers, at least at the Final Judgment]
Hmmmm.
Back to blessings. The Bible tells us that we do not have because we do not ask, not because we chose to be disobedient.
I've talked myself into a corner, I can no longer think straight...
posted by Heather | 1:24 PM
43 Comments:
AHA! thank you so much for this! i have not heard anyone else get here! i wholeheartedly and (place your own strong adverb here) agree!
in my opinion, from study and personal experience, i think that the only part of sin that is actually sin is the disobedience. in fact, if i had to define sin, i would say it is disobeying god.
but this is obliterating to the "moral code."
woman... do you really want to see how deep this rabbit hole goes? because it is something, (grace & sin), that i have been studying for a few years now.
i could just ramble and ramble and pack your comment box with my thoughts and feelings and how excited i am to hear you talk like this. but i would rather wait and see if it's a discussion you want to have. because if it is, i think we can leave the kickball coach alone and continue our discussion here. (since it's just us anyway) as i think this is the natural progression from everything that has been said there. what do you think?
you down?
Totally! Bring it on!
You start.
i see how it is. make the guest do the work. all right. erin and i have a birthday party to go to in a short bit, but i'll fill this up when i get back.
groovy.
sorry, mother's day calls...
I think of this as almost a natural law like gravity, but it is a natural moral law. Therefore, actions have consequences if we chose to sin, we are going to have bad consequences as a result of our actions. It is not "punishment"--it is a result of our bad choices that we reap what we sow, so to speak. Likewise, if we chose to bless other people, we ourselves will be blessed by the act of giving or service or whatever we do.
So, again, it is a natural moral law. Bad decisions (i.e. sin)reap bad consequences because this is the way that God has created our reality. He created the framework of this, and we exist in it...It is a natural cause and effect interaction because of the moral system he has woven even into the fabric of this universe, his creation.
I don't really believe in lightening bolts from heaven either. I think that is pretty rare...though if you think of the OT and Soddam and Gomorrah....I guess you could argue that God does sometimes punish individuals or groups of people for outlandish and copious unrepentent sin--you know, fire and brimstone. But more often than not, we suffer because we make dumb choices.
And, not all bad things that happen to us are a result of sin. For instance, my dad lost his land--does this mean that he was sinning and is now being punished? Probably not. Life happens. We are not immune from trials because we are Christians--in fact we should expect them.
alrighty. erin, thank you for your perspective. it was good to hear. and also gives me a place of reference to begin or to continue, depending on your perspective.
i just began rereading mere christianity by cs lewis and he speaks of this natural law. this thing beyond ourselves which is in us all that points us to an order or standard of basic right and wrong. and he gave several examples of this.
where heather and i have come in conversation is a discussion of the "moral code" which is the man made standard by which we "should" live in order to acheive a "good christian life."
heather, i would agree that it is the disobedience that is a sin. but to whom? is there a place in which we feel the same "prick" in our consciences through conditioning of the church culture around us when we disobey the "moral code"? and is this prick a good thing or is it because we have been taught, the same as the pharisees and teachers of the law used to teach their laypeople, that to disobey the moral code or "tradition of the elders" is to disobey god? i believe it is. the problem for me lies in the fact that the moral code consists of things that god has never asked of all of us. and when examined, the foundations for this code are very shaky indeed. and there is much freedom in walking out from underneath the moral code. but when and if you do, do not expect joyous accolades as many are still convinced that the moral code is something passed down to us by god himself rather than recognizing it for the golden calf that it is. the man made thing we bow down to and say it has delivered us. as if the cross was not enough and now we can only be saved by helping it along with our adherence to said code.
erin, you touched on something very interesting that i have wondered about in the past year and been exploring in my own life. bad choices. natural consequences. and the fact that we live in a place surrounded by people who make bad choices that may or may not affect us as well as them through no fault of our own.
so there are some preliminaries. but where does this leave us? with a single glaring question: what is sin?
is it the actual action? or is it the state of heart? as paul said, we are actually sinning by doing something we are convinced god does not want us to do. so when god speaks, obedience is demanded in a sense simply because of who it is that speaks.
but does he speak the same to all of us? this is where i disagree with most. i would say no. i would say god asks different things, sometimes contradictory things, of each one of us to see if we will follow him. to see if we fear him or fear men and their rules.
because in the place i have come, i think i am actually beginning to gain an understanding of these verses. which is impossible to have when living according to the religion of the moral code. according to the code, we are always failing. and it gives "the accuser" power to speak and defeat and destroy in our lives. apart from the code, there is only grace. and grace is complete. as jesus said, "it is finished."
Tit 1:15 "To the pure, all things are pure..."
1Jn 3:9 "No one who is born of God will continue to sin..."
i know this is just the tip, but i didn't want to make this any longer than it already is. and i also want to make sure you're following my train of thought before we go out further. whether or not you agree. any questions? thoughts?
much love, jON
Jon,
I've got huge thoughts and not a lot of time.
It occurred to me during discussion with my mentor today that grace isn't even talked about anymore in church. Neither is forgiveness. If we forget these two crucially important parts of Christianity, we've got nothing but "moral code." I think this is what you've been saying.
And yes, no wonder people don't want what we've got. I don't want what we've got!
I'm still chewing on the portion of your thoughts that concern what the spirit is saying and dealing with an individual about, instead of trying to adhere to the moral code. Could you go into more detail concerning this thought?
I have to go, but I'll be back tonight.
H
Okay, now I've got some time and a better understanding of your last post.
I'll start with what you said: "and it gives "the accuser" power to speak and defeat and destroy in our lives. apart from the code, there is only grace. and grace is complete. as jesus said, "it is finished."" AMEN!
Yes, this moral code kills grace and kills forgiveness, and when you don't have grace and forgiveness, you have moral code/law and no one can adhere to that. So, you've got people running around doing one of two things: either they are living however the heck they want to live and doing anything they want with total disregard for the code, or they are living in fear, knowing they can't live up to the code, so they sneak around God, (and don't get too close, because he might burn)and never once knowing what it is to be free. The weight of their own sin comes crashing down on them, making them responsible for their salvation, by works. Thus, the enemy jumps in with both barrels pointed straight at the poor soul who's been lied to by the church!
So then, what are you proposing by your thought in your first post concerning sin - you said the definition of sin is disobeying God. Okay, I'm with you. But then later you say that God speaks to people differently, and doesn't call everyone to the same act of obedience. What I'm afraid of is that relativism is going to sneak into our conversation - What's right for me may not be right for you.... Isn't there still absolute truth? I think so. So then, how do we define what is sin? Well, now that I'm saying that, I'm seeing that God would never lead anyone into sin, so if someone is doing something and says that God told me to do this, then it wouldn't be sin, because God told them. But wouldn't this give people license to do strange things, all saying that God told them to? I'm afraid for what this means, Jon.
Take, for example, the case of the girl who wants to live with her boyfriend before they're married. Why doesn't she just say, well, God told me it was okay - where do we get off telling her she's wrong, because it's not in Scripture (although I believe the verse, "A man shall leave his mother and father and cleave to his wife" is a good argument against cohabiting), then are we to assume that it's okay? I think I'm starting to confuse myself, so I'll leave off at that. See if you can pick up my mess of thoughts...
H
i've totally got you. give me the night and i shall be back the 'morrow.
sleep well in ND.
This is really interesting. Can I just interupt and say I've always hated the hymn "Trust and obey for there is not other way to be happy in Jesus than to trust and obey." These words make it sound like it is up to us to keep the moral code and God is going to belt us over the head if we don't. I don't think it mentions grace or love in the whole hymn.
I think we stress far too much over the moral code. We sit around bemoaning our shortcomings and God is saying things like, come on let's getting going, there are people who need to know about my love. I've paid for your sins past, present and future.
One other thing, I find that I have no desire to do things that would displease God.
Jonnnnnnnnnnn, I'm waiting.........
:P
you're addicted now, aren't you?
we're obviously on the same page as regards the "moral code." yet, we must recognize that there is, as cs lewis put it, a "moral law" that has been put into the hearts of everyone. the job then becomes trying to exfoliate and figure out what is actually contained in the moral law (which is god made) and what is a part of the moral code (which is man made). because in truth, we need not obey men. god is our first and only absolute authority.
moving forward, let's look at your concerns.
"I'm still chewing on the portion of your thoughts that concern what the spirit is saying and dealing with an individual about, instead of trying to adhere to the moral code. Could you go into more detail concerning this thought?
absolutely. what i am saying is that there is a marked difference with us trying under our own power to change something about ourselves that we are trying to change because we feel we "ought" to change that thing and not because it is really in our hearts at the moment to change it. and much of this comes from the "voices" that roll around your head to remind you of the moral code and how you are failing it at any given moment. OR... recognizing something about yourself that doesn't line up with the moral law of god, but it's something he's not working on right now and so in either case you set out on your own to change something you can't only to fail miserably and feel greatly condemned and discouraged. this has happened to me countless times in my life.
HOWEVER... there have been times, far fewer, when god himself by his spirit will bring something to my attention and say, "it's time to deal with this now" and i find a new perspective and ability to change a part of my being and mind and heart that i could not, until god got involved, change on my own. so what i am saying is that we should simply wait for god to intervene in his time over the issues he chooses. and feel rest and peace in the meantime since "his grace is sufficient for us." anything else is a recipe for disaster (if we fail) or self righteousness (if we succeed). and i'm not sure if you have had them, but there is always a marked difference between me condemning and trying to convict myself and god doing it himself. there is a big difference and one that is always easy to differentiate for those who know him.
"Isn't there still absolute truth? But wouldn't this give people license to do strange things, all saying that God told them to? I'm afraid for what this means, Jon."
yes. there still is absolute truth. god is absolute. but because absolute truth exists doesn't mean that everything is absolute anymore than the fact that because some things are relative it makes everything relative. what i get from scripture, ESPECIALLY the writings of the NEW COVENANT is that it is not so much about "sin" anymore (individual acts) as it is about obedience. and the cross, having dealt with our "sins" (individual acts), has cleared the way for god's spirit to be poured out on us so we may hear and obey him moment to moment. and there is an element to that which includes scripture, but as i see the lives of men and women recounted in the book of acts, there is a lot of stuff going on that has NOTHING to do with following any scripture and EVERYTHING to do with them being tuned into the spiritual realm and listening for the spirit to guide them at any moment and them needing to have the willingness to say "yes."
everyone is afraid of this. because you are right. people have such a great amount of freedom since the cross that we can no longer make external judgements of people. until i threw those lyrics out there, you might never have known how similar you and eddie vedder actually are on the inside. and if he can tap into your heart as much as he did, knowing that you know the spirit of god, it should raise questions for you as to whether or not he does too.
are people going to engage in crazy shit? yes! some of it good, some of it bad. some people are simply going to make god the scapegoat for their own desires and some people are going to be asked by god to do some fucked up things. examples? noah, abraham, joseph, david, isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel, jesus, paul, and so on and so forth. god asked these guys to do stuff WAY outside of our boxes of normal and sometimes even decent. but they knew they had no choice but to obey. and thankfully they did!
here's a more modern example of what i'm saying. we know what the bible says about drunkeness. that's all fine and well, i'm not disputing any of it. but perhaps one person, in their personal convictions, feels moved by the spirit to never drink and that will have a great impact on the circles of people who have been "given" to him. and then there's another guy who has been given a conscience to go into bars and hang out with people and god says to him, "go and buy a drink for that young guy. start talking with him. he really needs my love poured out on him through you right now." in both cases, you have people obeying god, but the actual actions are opposites!
and that's what i am getting at here. the moral code, which is a man made thing, has taken boundaries godly men have set for themselves in their personal dealings with god and tried to make them into "1000 easy steps to pleasing god." the trouble is, scripture has never mandated any of these things, and in most cases people simply follow the code and not god. leaving them in no way in any sort of a moment to moment relationship with him. which is how we should be. and i believe it is possible. well, i KNOW it is possible.
and, again, yes. people are going to do all sorts of crazy things we don't agree with. but that's their freedom. if it's of god, we should step back and let them do it. if it's not, it is going to amount to nothing and they'll have to answer for it when they die anyway, so we should step back and let them do it. we're all big boys and girls here and we each have to answer for ourselves. if i do what you're telling me to do, i'm not actually making the decision myself.
and yet again, when paul talks of ridding ourselves of "malice" for example, engaging in malice is going to be a different thing for everyone. for one who is a loud talker and blunt and seems to be beligerant, there may be not a trace of malice in their heart. and god knows that. but someone else may be the "nicest & sweetest" person in the world, but inside their heart it is FILLED with rage and malice and while they are smiling at you and holding the door for you they are cursing you out twelve differnt ways. that's what's in their heart and god knows it as well.
it's about the heart.
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also."
yeah... that's enough for now.
much love, jON
Yes, yes, and yes!
Ugh - I'm dealing with a very Pharisaical situation at work, and I about blew my top today. It's so interesting that we happen to be discussing this as I'm watching it play out in the lives of some people.
So, let's go back to premarital cohabitation. Since it is not specifically addressed in the Scriptures (one can argue that the verse, "a man shall leave his mother and father and be united with his wife and they shall become one flesh," could be close to addressing it, and someone once said that Jesus, when he was at the well with the Samarian woman, when he said, "And the man you now live with is not your husband," was speaking against non-marital cohabitation - which I think is simply reading into Scripture what you want) that this is something of a moral choice. I don't think premarital cohabitation is good - studies show that couples who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce. However, if we're going to preach to people that you cannot live together before you marry, because you're laughing in God's face, and because God doesn't want you to do that, and you're pleasing Satan, then we're Pharisees, are we not?
But then you get to the heart issue, and I get stuck. You said,
"it is not so much about "sin" anymore (individual acts) as it is about obedience. and the cross, having dealt with our "sins" (individual acts), has cleared the way for god's spirit to be poured out on us so we may hear and obey him moment to moment."
It's not the act that's the problem, it's being obedient that counts. And is someone who wants to cohabitate being disobedient? I don't honestly know!!!
I bring up this issue because I dealt with it recently in a situation.
I'm also discovering that many of the "Christian" books out there are also big on moral code. Here, read this book and do what it says, because it's easier to do that than to have a relationship with God! This is especially true for baby Christians.
And, boy, are you right about Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc....! Here, Abraham, go sacrifice your only son, that I promised to give you, as an offering to me! HA! I would have laughed in God's face, I think! Now that would have been disobedience on my part, bigger than life.
Well, I need to go watch my hubby bubby play softball. I look forward to continuing this discussion. I'm totally addicted!!!
Love, Heather
this is by no means avoidance, but rather to communicate the opposite. these are my 3 12 hour work days taht i have which afford me 4 days off every week to do the things i was actually meant to do.
having said that, i would encourage you to go back and reread everything on the kickball coah and here again before we go on.
i should be around sometime probably saturday night to add more. if not saturday, then monday as sundays are family days. it's a strict rule in our home and one i am glad to submit to!
sweet dreams indeed.
couple more things before we move on...
"However, if we're going to preach to people that you cannot live together before you marry, because you're laughing in God's face, and because God doesn't want you to do that, and you're pleasing Satan, then we're Pharisees, are we not?"
yes. i would say you are right on to say that if we extrapolate things from scripture and try to preach as though the extrapolated thing were actually contained in scripture that we are indeed being "pharisees" or champions of the "law" or "moral code" or whatever you want to call it. we should simply be honest.
let them know what scripture honestly does or does not say, give our own opinion on the subject, and leave the choice up to them and let them know we will love them without judgement no matter what they choose.
because that's how we want to be treated by others. and it's better than guilting someone into making a decision we would like to see them make by giving them our opinion and telling them it's god's opinion too when we just don't know.
and on a side note, if we're going to use the "cleave" verse in that fashion to say something it doesn't actually say, it could be argued that a man should not leave his father and mother until he has a wife to cleave to! i'm guessing most of us wouldn't agree with or even be interested in such a notion.
secondly, you said, "But then you get to the heart issue, and I get stuck."
could you clarify that a little for me? i reread your post and it seems as if you kind of gloss over this point and get sidetracked OR i don't really know what you mean by "stuck."
and yeah, i'm addicted too. this conversation has been going on for me for about 10 months now and i still can't get enough.
but i think it is only fair to warn you that in realizing these things, though good and right and true, will not win you any accolades from those who adhere so rigorously to the moral code. i have, as a matter of fact, been recently asked to stop talking to the youth group and college age kids and just be quiet and recant some things that i've said. obviously i can't knowing them to be as true as i do, but... it's still there.
how easily discussions of grace, true grace, seem to divide people. so, in the spirit of honesty and openness, i feel it fair to warn you what has happened to me. and my grandfather. and jesus and any of the apostles. count the cost.
because this conversation is more than just "playing games" for me. it is revolutionizing my life and i can't go back.
"i've tasted a life wasted and i am never going back again. i escaped it, a life wasted, and i am never going back again."
much love, jON
Hey Jon,
I'm still thinking.
I received some very sound Biblical wisdom today concerning my issue with this premarital cohabitation thing. I brought up that the Bible doesn't speak against it anywhere, and she stopped me in my tracks. Her point was that we need to look at Scripture as a WHOLE, and Scripture as a whole speaks loudly to keeping the marriage bed pure. Also, by going ahead and living together before marriage, they are knowingly disobeying God, and there is judgment for this, unless they repent. The point of becoming a Christian is to become more like Christ and there should be movement in that direction, not blatant disobedience.
She said to be careful when looking for Scripture to say something about one certain topic, but, again, to look at it in the whole.
Tell me exactly what you were telling these college kids and the youth group that led you to be asked to quit. I'm curious.
H
"Her point was that we need to look at Scripture as a WHOLE, and Scripture as a whole speaks loudly to keeping the marriage bed pure. Also, by going ahead and living together before marriage, they are knowingly disobeying God, and there is judgment for this, unless they repent."
let me say that i agree. we do need to look at scripture as a whole. and i'm not just nit-picking here, but i have some things i would like to say about this.
what you have done here is jump back onboard with the moral code. it is such an easy thing to do, such a comfortable and familiar place to be. our whole lives we have been taught it is "right" and "true", and we never questioned it. and this woman's advice is not bringing things back into scriptural perspective, but rather bringing things back under the umbrella of the code. because, hey, everyone "knows" it's just "wrong" to cohabitate, right? so we need to be reading scripture not to see what it actually says, but for verses that can be used to back up our code, right?
i understand. i really do. i have grown up in the church for 30 years. it is a hard and difficult thing to begin to read the bible for yourself and be willing to throw off doctrine and popular opinions. but i have to maintain that NOWHERE in scripture does it even HINT that a man and a woman cannot share living space together or that to do so is somehow sinful.
yet, what the woman offered up to you, about the marriage bed, finally gets through to the heart of the matter. so what this is about is NOT two young people who are not married cohabitating. it's actually not about that at all. not to jump to conclusions or anything, but it sounds to me that the issue is actually whether these two young people will be having sex or not. and having sex and cohabitating are NOT the same thing.
that's what i mean about being honest and not going further than what scripture actually says. it can seem very wise, and perhaps be wise, to suggest a boundary of not cohabitating in order to forego the obvious temptations that will arise from cohabitating. and that is what i said to the young kids that i talked to at NW books.
but for them to just share living space together? come on. there is no way you can call it wrong. it's just not in scripture. it's not even hinted at. so to say that by cohabitating they are "knowingly disobeying god" is very presumptuous seeing as how you do not know their hearts.
nothing but smiles and nothing but love from here. understand that. i don't mind the disagreement and i'm doing my best to be gentle in saying i disagree with the conclusion by the way is was come to. simply for reasons we have JUST BEEN DISCUSSING! to tell young impressionable people that they are disobeying god in doing something that god has never forbidden... it leaves people with huge scars and boxes of fear and condemnation and guilt. it's good for no one and i believe a tool of the enemy. yet, as i said, i understand. it has been the way doctrine and code have been taught to me my whole life and i have even been a proponent and user of said code and conduct.
if your concern is over their sexuality, talk to them about that. talk to them about the pains and scras that can be left as a result of self-destructive sexual decisions. but if that's what the issue is, i think it will be hurtful to make it about something that it's not about. especially when that something is not addressed by the bible.
because even if you think or perhaps even KNOW they are making a mistake, you need to let them make it. that is their freedom that has been given to them. the right to choose. whether they use that right for wrong or not. if they are adults and know the risks involved and you have communicated to them your concern, that is all you can do. just let them know what you think and then leave it at that and love them. because that's how you want to be loved, i think. i know that's how i want to be loved.
but when you go beyond that and start saying "god says" when god didn't say, that's when the "moral code" is born. using god as a scapegoat to get people to do or not do what you do or do not want them to do. and heaping horrible psychological things upon them in the process.
as you said earlier.... Sick. Sick and Wrong. so, not to sound arrogant or anything, but to call advice that actually builds and supports the "moral code" is something i would have a hard time calling "sound biblical wisdom." though, moral code is eomthing we have been told our whole lives is "wisdom". by people who benefit from and love the code. so i understand why it is so hard to find yourself at odds with the code, or moreso at odds with people who are proponents of the code.
which is why i was asking if you really want to get into this. and advised you to count the cost. because when you start seeing these things, you are responsible for them. there is no going back.
but as you said in a previous response, "Ugh - I'm dealing with a very Pharisaical situation at work, and I about blew my top today. It's so interesting that we happen to be discussing this as I'm watching it play out in the lives of some people."
the veil was removed and you saw in stantly the truth of what we are discussing here. we have only scratched the surface and going deeper will noly dismantle your world. it has completely dismantled mine. but for the better. much better.
i don't know what i've said, but it's been enough for now. i'll come back later, if you still want to go on, and start sharing about the Hope situation if you would still like.
much love, jON
two questions in ending for you. what does it matter to you, in your world, ultimately if these young people live together or not? how does it affect your life?
Crap, Jon.
I'm so stuck. I'm really trying to discern for myself what is truth and what isn't. The woman I spoke with about this situation is someone I trust very much and have immense confidence in. She's my mentor and the teacher of the Bible Study Fellowship class I'm participating in. I understand what she's saying and how it applies to premarital sex. After we finished our discussion yesterday, I was thinking back over it and realized that what we were talking about was sex and not cohabitation. I think that she must just be putting the two together. But, also, come on...what two people, who when living together and dating, are not going to have sex? I think that's the bigger issue. AND, I think the Bible doesn't speak to this issue, because the Jews of that time were strictly taught that sex was to be preserved for marriage - no ifs, ands, or buts. So, cohabitation would not ever have been an issue. Although, I realize as I said that, that many of Paul's letters were to non Jewish communities, who were heathen to begin with. But, again, I believe it is to be expected that fornication was the issue at heart, not cohabitation.
And, what does it matter to me that these two live together or not? Well, I'm their counselor/mentor, I'm a learned Christian who wants to think that she can help people to live godly lives.
Right now, I'm shook to my very core about all of this. I understand what you're saying, and I understand what my mentor is saying, although I don't think we addressed the topic quite correctly. I'm stuck, stuck, stuck. I need to think and pray about this. It's easy to say that I want to discuss this when it's theory and doesn't affect my life or another's. Now it's different.
I still want to hear your Hope stories.
Also - no worries - I wasn't offended by anything you said.
H
exactly. i'm in the same boat. shook to the core of my being. but being a little further down this trail, it is safe to say that my worldview has been completely shttered now and i'm trying to put the pieces back together in a truly biblical fashion lead only by god's spirit and NOT the opinions or traditions of men.
and it's been very sticky and slow going. because so many of the things i thought were concrete are not. in fact, they are lies being taught as truth. and that has me even more messed up over this.
because the lies are being taught by people i love and have trusted. and it is nothing against any PERSON. each person caught up in this is caught up in it because they have a heart for god. what i am warring against now is the SYSTEM OF CONTROL that has been set up surrrounding the core truth of god and his love and the grace that has been offered to us through the cross. and i think there is a dark spiritual force at work in all of this. an "angel of light", so to speak. making us forget grace and trying to earn our right standing with god all over again.
no more for now. i just didn't want to leave you hanging feeling alone in this if you came back. i know what it is like to deconstruct your reality and it's good to have someone with you in it.
back later with tales of Hope.(if it weren't so painfully ironic, it would almost be funny)
much love, jON
i have been blogging since august of last year. in this place i found outlet for my thoughts. they were so many and just rattling around inside with nowhere to go. not only was i able to vent and get things out, i was able to find give and take on these thoughts and have discussion without fear. without thought that i was judged or having my thoughts and feelings squashed out if they made someone else "uncomfortable" or "offended". it was my page and i wasn't going to live by "their" rules in my own space.
the most amazing thing i have found is others who are sharing in this journey that i am on. several people have come alongside for a while. but there is a core group now that meets regularly and has for over 6 months now. it is a church. don't let anyone else tell you different.
you are here now. i am here now in spirit as you read this. we all are. and we are all called here in jesus' name. church is happening.
in feb. tessa (my niece) had a brainstorm. let's get all the people from Hope on myspace together in a Hope group! i was a little skeptical, but i relented and joined in and did my best to create the same type of community i had found on my blog. i tried to share this part of my being, my true inner man, with them. it didn't go as well as it did on my blog. much less love. much less willing interchange of ideas and acceptance of new ones.
things actually started out really well. after one post. for about 2 days. once i posted a second time, it was over.
people stopped talking.
you have to understand something. since i view this as church and a "virtual fellowship hall", this had a huge impact on me. when i am in conversation here i picture myself sitting at a table looking at the others and listening to them when they talk. there is no seperation of person when i am here. i don't know if it's a gift or something everyone could do if they tried, but i can see straight into a person's soul here and speak into it and they in turn into mine. it's why i love coming here. it's what church should be. the safest place on earth.
as things progressed, different threads were started by myself to get people to think about different things and in different ways to stretch their boundaries and concepts of god. not much response. i suspect most people didn't know what to say or were afriad to be honest with other people "listening". so as i felt more and more isolated and left alone, one day a disclaimer pops up on the site that had never been there before. "The opinions expressed here are not necessarily those of the corprate leadership or the congregation of Hope Christian Church. For more information please visit: www.hopemn.com"
i was a little put out to say the least. i talked about it, and did not hide my suspicion and hurt. i was eventually talked to very sternly about challenging the decisions of the church leadership.
the next week i posted two very strong threads about "community" and "what is church?" i said that if the Hope Christian People that belong to this group are on myspace every day, why do they not stop by and say something? how can we say we are a community if we are not a community? i was again reprimanded, a little more sternly this time, about trying to tell everyone what to do and expecting them to be like me and i should not talk about it.
the next week, tessa picks up and old thread i had started about nine inch nails' newest album "with teeth" and some lyrics and how i thought that trent reznor has been trying to communicate divine truth to us this whole time and my preconceived notions about him kept me from really listening to his heart and message and understanding it. and i left a formal open apology to trent on the site.
tessa picks it back up and starts a conversation with me about it.
heather, you have no idea what kind of chaos ensued. it was almost an "end of the book of acts" style courtroom drama. this time when i started talking to tessa bob came in about four posts into the conversation and took it over. he started making all sorts of judgements about trent reznor and, given my responses to him, started questioning me about what i thought was a sin.
that's when shit started getting really heavy.
the responses to me were becoming ever incresingly hostile and impatient. i was trying to be kind and speak through a veil so as to not do what bob was accusing me of doing -- corrupting young minds. i was trying to be kind because, as you know first hand, the things i want to discuss among responsible and mature adults have the power to dismantle your reality in the course of a single week.
and it's not that these are things you have never thought of before. it's just the first time you've ever had them validated with confidence and without fear.
god can accomplish some amazing shit THROUGH a person who lives in a world without fear. a person who lives in a world without fear is a person who god can take ANYWHERE and DO ANYTHING through.
that is the gift he has given us. to all of us. the wrath has been taken care of. we can live in a world free to love him however we desire to, and live in his light. this is our birthright. everyone who is born a human has been born into a world where the son of god has been sacrified for the sins of the world: past, present, and future. the whole body of sin. for all time. sacrificed. finished. accomplished. past tense. done.
and when you live this way it is obliterating to the "moral code" and those who adhere to it. and bow to it. and believe it to be of god. or rather as if it were god himself. you've seen it with your own eyes. you know the truth of this.
and when you encourage young people, especially late teens and early to mid twenties, who have few boundaries to begin with, that they can actually live without man's boundaries without fear because "every mistake we might make has been paid for so find your heart and RUN with it! enjoy it, love it, live it, share it!!!!!"
when you give them permission to, they do.
fans of the code are NOT fans of this approach. they usually nail fuckers down for this sort of thing. and i got nailed. sitting in the "face to face" i had with trent, bob, and judy was one of the most painful and worst things i have ever done. somehow, someway, their ears have been closed to me and what i have to say. what i felt i got back from my open and completely vulnerable replies and cries for honesty and intimacy and kindness were talons. shredding the most tender parts of my inner being. and they were giving me nothing of themselves. just shredding whatever i brought out.
so i'm not going any more. in fact, i'm not going anywhere for a little bit. i need to live without the code and code culture for a little while to get my bearings before i go back.
of course, if god has me go and speak there again tomorrow, that is his choice and not mine. yet one i will seek to make my own. that is why the law had to be done away with.
it had to be fulfilled. because the law arouses the sinful nature and gives it power. paul said this in romans. when the law is dead, and we can truly do ANYTHING without fear, it is easy to identify what behavior is beneficial and that which is not. i can cheat on erin a billion times and it would not make a difference with the cross.
but why would i WANT to? that would be an idiot move on my part. i have the best woman in the world and i'm not going to screw that up. not only that, i am going to spoil her and treat her like my queen and enjoy every sencond of the time i have left on this rock with her. because she deserves it. how could i even think of giving that up?
but does that mean because i am intimate on a personal level with another female that this level of devotion is challenged and compromised? by no means! for what is in my heart for my wife is firmly locked in place. i know how difficult a road it was to get here, i am not inetersted in starting over on some other woman, believe me! but i love women all the same. and it's not threatening because there is no threat in my heart. i know that, god knows that, and more importantly, my wife knows that. and that's all that matters.
"what" decisions do i make and "why" based on what is ACTUALLY in my heart, not just what i SAY is there and bullshit myself right into hell.
one day i just had to echo trent reznor when he sings the song "right where it belongs". as he sings, he begins to ask questions.
"See the animal in his cage that you built
Are you sure what side you're on?
Better not look him too closely in the eye
Are you sure what side of the glass you are on?
See the safety of the life you have built
Everything where it belongs
Feel the hollowness inside of your heart
And it's all
Right where it belongs
[Chorus:]
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you want it to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself
Find yourself afraid to see?"
the words pierce me to the core of my being and when my immediate response to them comes out, taht's what i grasp because the "voices" can show up to guide me back onto the "correct" path, my heatr has already born witness that i agree with him. and that is the point i need to start from. not by telling myself taht i believe things i don't believe but feel i should, but rather by embracing and investigating what i TRULY believe without fear of man. because they're not going to stand next to me on judgement day. it's just me and the man at that point. and i'll tell him i told that pretentious asshole of a spirit behind the moral code to fucking stick and grab as many as i could out from under his grasp. taht is what i want my life to be remembered for. not some worthless corporate achievements that will burn and support a beast of a capatalist system anyway.
holy shit. wow. umm.... that was a lot. just know i love you deeply, heather. agape. brother to sister. and i'm always here when you have questions or comments. i think i'll wait for you to digest this one for awhile. i'll wait for a response and invitation before i speak again. if this is a converstaion that you want to stop at any time, let me know. i will cease and decist immediately with no ill will at all. i will understand completely and nothing will be changed. it's your choice and you are completely free to make it on your own. that's all i want for anyone.
much love, jON
I feel like I have been eavesdropping on a private conversation so thanks for letting me. Love the honesty.
susan, your presence is welcomed by me. i "know" you and trust you and your heart. i know that things done on the web are things done in the light. there are no "private" conversations even when there are.
i hope that heather will not take offense at your presence. it can be unsettling to know that others are eavesdropping, but less so when you know they are here with you to cheer you on instead of judge you and shove you back in line.
and i know you are here to cheer, dear sister. so cheer on. we all need the encouragement. to embrace that which is of god and stand in the face of the anger that presents itself when we say, "we will not bow to an idol any longer!" and encouragement to find strength to face whatever the consequences to that decision are.
god stand with us all. help us to follow your spirit wherever it will lead. and help us to be unafriad of the questions. and even more, to be unafraid of the answers, no matter what they are. you are worthy of the inner most parts of our being and we need to offer it all to you right now no matter what it is. lay it all on the altar for you to look at. and give you full reign to pick and choose what stays and what goes at any moment. and surprisingly, you turn out to be a far more gentle Master than any human we have ever known. so we need not fear your grace and love. the only place we are safe from your awesome and terrible being is in full on honest relationship with you. help us to do that. to be honest with you and ourselves about whatever is in our hearts right now. and be comfortable with it because your son has purchased us for you with his blood that cannot be taken away.
we love you lord, but we are weak. help us, father, to stop fearing and just believe you DO care for us and WILL care for us. even in the midst of pain and sacrifice. for you are worthy of our joy and our pain. you are worthy of everything. for you are in all and through all. for all time. ancient of days. be glorified in our lives. pour your light straight through us today according to the measure of access we give you to our lives. make it a little more today in my life, lord. just a little more than before. give me one baby step today. just so i know i'm still moving forward. thank you.
Still digesting....
take your time.
Okay, I think I'm ready to address this again.
I have come to the conclusion that where Scripture is silent, or at least unclear, if we need answers, we need to look to the character of God, because that's what Scripture is about, anyway.
When I look at the character of God, he is a holy God, who desires us to be holy. To me, being holy includes running from temptation and avoiding imitating evil. Of course we're going to fail from time to time, but that is what grace is for. What grace is NOT for, is the person who continually and purposefully sins or lives an unholy life, thinking that they can just ask for forgiveness after the fact. That wasn't the purpose of grace, although I do believe that God forgives anything if we truly repent and ask for forgiveness.
For example: the Bible does not say anything anywhere about not having abortions. It's more vague. We are to value life because we are created in the image of God, and we are not to kill, and of course there's all the psalm stuff about him knitting us together in our mother's womb. Does that mean that because Scripture doesn't say explicitly that we are not to have abortions, that it makes it okay, or even permissible? Let's look at the character of God - when I do that, I remember that he created man so that he could have a relationship with him. This means he values us and values life, and if he knit me together in my mother's womb, that's very special.
So, to get back to our discussion of premarital cohabitation, when I look at the character of God, and his desires for a holy life from me (because he knows that this is best for me, not because it's required to get into heaven, or because the cross didn't do it all), I am convinced that living with my boyfriend before we get married is not God's best. There's a better plan.
Don't you want to live a life as pleasing to God as possible? And that has everything to do with obedience and disobedience.
I'm curious what other things are on the moral code list. I want to understand more the types of things you're talking about when you refer to the moral code.
The thing that I do agree with you about is concerning the way that pious Christians blast other Christians for unrighteous living. THAT, to me, is not Biblical at all, and very Pharisaical. I've still got this person at work who says things like, "Yeah, Satan really got that one back, didn't he?" When referring to the person choosing to live with the significant other to whom they're not married. That REALLY, REALLY, REALLY concerns me. Where does she get off saying that?!? Who died and made her God?
I want to continue the discussion for now. I'll tell you if I'm done or not.
:)
H
just so you know, i agree with you. i think there are many things in scripture that are vague and we should look at god's character to help guide us in making our decisions in those areas.
but that gets us into more trouble. because how a person understands and interprets god's character and what any of those traits may mean and look like is going to be different for every single person on the face of the earth. some of them may align, but there is still going to be places where we don't see eye to eye. and what i am saying is that should be okay. if someone is different from me or even doing something unrepentantly that i thikn they shouldn't be doing, as long as it is not abusing me, i am convinced i should let them do what they wish and not give them grief over it.
for me, it comes down to this statement. “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial.
this, i feel, is the crux of the age the cross has brought us into. the law ahs been done away with. i know several will dispute me on this, but that's what the scriptures say.
i understand it to be this way because when once the commandments are removed, i am able to breathe more freely and the desire to engage in the self destructive loses its power. as paul says in romans 7 it is the commandment that gives sin its opportunity and power. solution? remove the commandment.
so god has. the universals are gone except for 2.
“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
these things, according to jesus, sum up the whole of scripture. keeping these two commands before you always will lead you on the correct path. so...
again, as i truly see it, the cross removed the universal requirements we were all failing at. he returned us to a "garden state" in which direct communication with god could be restored. then, he left us with the admonition to obey his commands which he boiled down to these two things. then he left and sent the comforter to lead us into all truth. and give us access to the father. with this relationship firmly in place, in an age where "everything is permissible", the spirit will convict us when we move beyond the "beneficial." at least, that is how it has been in my life.
and to echo erin's comments way back, i believe that there are indeed natural consequences to the things that we do or don't do. not really rewards and punishments.
so, back to the cohabitation. i am in no way saying that their relationship is going to blossom. or that it isn't going to even fail miserably. or that them cohabitating is by any means the best thing for them. not even remotely. but neither of us really know that. erin and i are certainly an anomally when it comes to the statistics. and now we have a healthier marriage than most who have done it "by the book."
but i am for freedom. always. i am for people being able to work out their own salvation and life with "fear and trembling" and not having to get earloads of commentary from people on it. if i ask for someone's opinion, they can give it. but when it is unsolicited, or someone continually is telling me how i'm not measuring up to their ideals (even if they got them from the bible) it has a profoundly negative effect. because i don't believe we are supposed to treat each other that way. but that's my conscience. going by universal #2. i would NEVER have anyone treat me that way, so i never treat anyone that way.
what i think is that it is between a person and god what is and is not beneficial in their life.
this is what has made themost sense to me, ahs helped me to find real freedom instead of misery and bondage parading as freedom, as well as living it out consistently has grown me more fruit than any other path i have tried.
and that is my sticking point. we can talk theology forever and disagree and disagree, but at the end of the day, this approach has gotten me closer to people i used to hate with a heart of love to draw near and aid them in a way to help tem stop making self destructive choices without condemning them. through offering them what i have learned in my own life, leaving the choice to them, and loving them anyway when they make choices i would not. it has, and continues to really work in my life and the world around me.
it's hard to hear other arguments based solely on "mental exercises" and having nothing to do with the power of god in the world. "knowledge puffs up, but love builds up." "and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power"
and that's ultimately what i want to see in this world. god's power at work again in radical ways. we need a revival. and it needs to start with me.
"if someone is different from me or even doing something unrepentantly that i thikn they shouldn't be doing, as long as it is not abusing me, i am convinced i should let them do what they wish and not give them grief over it."
Jon, I think the point that you're getting at in this statement is something I agree with wholeheartedly. And, truly, I think this is the crux of what you're arguing. We SHOULD let people do what they wish and not give them grief over it. That said, I also believe we need to speak truth into people's lives, but I think it should be as you stated - with love and tenderness, speaking from a place of having been there before, or whatnot. AND, that truth must be spoken concurrently with grace. That's what the Bible is about - TRUTH and GRACE. They have to go together, because if you only go with truth, you get law, if you leave out truth, you get chaos.
"but i am for freedom. always. i am for people being able to work out their own salvation and life with "fear and trembling" and not having to get earloads of commentary from people on it."
Again, who are we to judge? That's not our place, and Paul tells us so. And if we think it is, Jesus told us to take the plank out of our own eye before removing the speck from your brother's eye. And yes, we are to each work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It's serious business!
"through offering them what i have learned in my own life, leaving the choice to them, and loving them anyway when they make choices i would not."
Yes, we need to leave the choice to them, because God does!
"for me, it comes down to this statement. “Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial.
this, i feel, is the crux of the age the cross has brought us into. the law ahs been done away with. i know several will dispute me on this, but that's what the scriptures say."
Who is going to dispute you on that? It's pretty clear in the New Testament that the law was abolished when Jesus died. I still think the law is a good reminder of how to live well, but we all know that no one can live up to.
The other thing I've been thinking about is what you said about waiting for the spirit to convict you of changing some behavior or issue in your life. I found, when I became a Christian, that I wanted to change things and I believe that comes from the spirit as well. And, as Susan stated in her first post, as a Christian, she finds that she doesn't want to do anything to disobey God. Wouldn't that be true of all Christians? I mean, obviously I screw stuff up, but usually not intentionally. And when it is intentional, I am immediately "pricked" and confess and repent.
(An hour later...)
I just went and re-read your first post on this blog entry. Where you defined sin as disobeying God, and how that obliterates the moral code. Then, how do we know if we're disobeying God if it's not specifically in Scripture? So, in the case of cohabitation, we're told to not imitate evil. If a couple cohabitates, that's disobeying God, because for all practical purposes, it looks as though they're having sex, and according to Scripture, that's the evil part. So they're imitating evil. I guess that's how I look at it.
But, I want you to tell me what other things fall under the moral code for you. I'm still curious about this.
H
thanks. worked 14 hours today and i need to spend time with my queen. just wanted you to know i was here. i'll meditate on it all day at work and try to give you something good.
j
once again, long day at work, short day at home. it's my weekends...
one question for clarification, and it may seem silly for me to ask because i already assume i know the answer, but you know what they say about assumption being the mother of all fuckups...
are you asking what is contained in the nebulous thing i personally call the "moral code" in my own life? or do you think that i have a specific idea of one single "moral code" that everyone is walking around with and would like to know what is in that? because i can speak for myself, but the "moral code" seems to be different for every single person. and for now, i can only answer a small portion of what i have successfully exfoliated in my own life and few other things out there that seem to me to fall under said category.
having said all of that, i am going to make you wait until tomorrow night when i will have time to answer more fully. that and i like to torture people with anticipation.
j
I guess I'm curious about your own ideas.
I have thoughts about what might be some examples, other than, of course, the one we've been discussing, but would like maybe a little clearer picture.
thanks....
h
no problem. i have an early opportunity to get out of town and up to duluth for the weekend, and so i don't have the time i thought i would to respond today. i'll be back early next week.
enjoy yours!
j
i'm not sure why, but i'm feeling a little mischievous at the moment. and at the same time, i think it is the most pertinent place to start with my perceptions of and dealings with the code since it was the first unanswered question i had in sunday school and is the real root of the cohabitation concerns.
"So, in the case of cohabitation, we're told to not imitate evil. If a couple cohabitates, that's disobeying God, because for all practical purposes, it looks as though they're having sex, and according to Scripture, that's the evil part."
so tell me. where does the bible define any sexual relations between an unmarried man and woman as ALWAYS being innappropriate and "sinful"?
and to answer the question you posed: "Then, how do we know if we're disobeying God if it's not specifically in Scripture?"
your conscience. your heart. if you believe yourself to be disobeying god, then you are. even if you are not. which is why i am on a personal crusade at the moment to find out what is actually contained in scripture and what is just man's interpretations of scripture. so that i may live with a clean and clear conscience before god knowing that everything that flows from this heart does so without an attitude of disobedience.
because the code often teaches us to lie to ourselves, to god (as if that were possible), and to everyone else about what we enjoy or what is actually in our hearts. as you said, you wake up one morning not recognizing yourself and it terrifies you. who you think you are and who you actually are are two different people.
Hey guys--great discussion. Very intense. Lots of interesting thoughts and lots of things i agree with (and some I am leary of given the relativistic and experiential world we live in). I think it would also be interesting to throw into this discussion the difference between conviction and guilt. I think that guilt plays a huge role in these "gray areas." For instance, take drinking. I think some people just don't drink because they feel guilty--NOT because they feel convicted by the Holy Spirit. And some chose to not drink because they do feel convicted about it (through the Holy Spirit and through common sense). Anyway, I think there is a huge difference between guilt and conviction. One is condemnation from Satan (via our moral system or the church or our own ideas, what have you). One is conviction from the Holy Spirit--and one of the primary facets of sanctification, which is something that Jon has brought up several times--trusting God that he will renew and remold us in his timing in his way. I think that leaning on this truth is one of the greatest sources for peace for Christians.
amen, amen, and amen. good to hear from you again, erin. this is something that i actually was able to put into a coherant thought with words earlier today and wanted to say. and you beat me here.
i think the moral code is something taht actually MAKES "sinners" out of us, whereas we would not have been before it. the code convinces you that you are disobeying god, even when you are not. as such, when you engage in something you enjoy, i.e. going out with friends for drinks, you are doing nothing wrong or sinful. but if you live in a community where even looking at or thinking about alcohol is "sinful" much less partaking, it can be too easy to be convinced taht you are sinning when you partake. and as we all know from paul, "But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean."
so we become convinced from trusting in the teachers taht these things are "unclean" when IN TRUTH they are not, and we become caught in a cycle of misery. either through engaging in something that truly brings us joy, but not being able to enjoy it because we feel we are disobeying god. OR through not engaging in that thing that brings us joy in order to "obey god" and being miserable and afraid of enjoying our joy.
such is the state in which i found myself a year ago after a lifetime of living in a box of fear. i'm tired of giving the accuser power in my life to steal my god given joy and my god given right ot enjoy my joy and enjoy my life. because when i enjoy my life vibrantly and out loud, my fruit grows stonger and brighter and i feel much more at ease sharing that fruit with everyone around me instead of sitting at home isolated and alone afraid of the big bad world out there just waiting to infect me with its darkness.
I think the Bible is very clear that sex between two people who are not married is a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:18 states: "Flee from sexual immorality." (NIV) The Greek word for 'sexual immorality' is 'porneia.' Its definition is as follows: sexual immorality, fornication, marital unfaithfulness, prostitution, adultery, a generic term for sexual sin of any kind....and even refers in one instance to illegitimate children. If you have ever looked up the word fornication, you know that its definition is sex with ANYONE who is not your SPOUSE. That is why I believe that the Bible calls unmarital sex a "sin."
Jon, you've brought up drinking as an example multiple times, and I agree with you 100% - first of all, the Bible is clear about getting drunk. Second, having alcohol is not a sin - that is very clear.
I think, Jon, that if we had not been discussing cohabitation, we would not be debating, because, outside of that, I THINK we agree on the moral code issue.
And, I agree with Erin, that there's guilt and then there's conviction. As she stated, the conviction comes from the spirit, the guilt is associated with moral code. I'm down with that.
Jon, you wrote a long time ago, "but does he speak the same to all of us? this is where i disagree with most. i would say no. i would say god asks different things, sometimes contradictory things, of each one of us to see if we will follow him. to see if we fear him or fear men and their rules."
I believe he speaks the same to all of us through his Word. From there on out, I believe he speaks to us differently, and specifically. (Erin will disagree with me on this - she does not believe God speaks to us individually/personally, a point which we have argued and have come to the conclusion that we have to agree to disagree.) But God is not going to ask me to do something that is contrary to his Word. Now, for the millionth time, what are these things that are in your code?!?!?! You never get around to answering me!!!!!! I'm very impatient.... :)
More later.
heb
sorry.
gambling, drinking, smoking, using drugs, dancing, listening to rock and roll (and even losing yourself in it), meditation, role playing games, harry potter, "dressing up" for church, swearing, tattoos, piercings, maturbating...
just a few to grab from the ether.
Thank you! ;-)
Um, I'm curious about the role playing part. Are we talking about games like Dungeons and Dragons or World of Warcraft, or is it something else you're referring to?
I LOVE Harry Potter. I remember when it first came out I was attending a fundamentalist nondenominational Church of Christ and they were totally anti-Harry. This made me anti-Harry, without really knowing anything about it! Those were my baby-Christian days.
As for smoking and using drugs, I always applied the fact that your body is a temple and you should treat it as such - not polluting it with things that will possibly kill you, not to mention that they can make you lose control of your body.
As for masturbating, Jesus said that if one looks lustily after a woman he has already committed adultery. A book I read about sex when I was a teenager said that masturbation is "wrong" because of what you do with your mind during the act. (This would require that married men think of their wives, which hopefully they would be doing anyway, (and vice versa for women).
Don't those parts of Scripture count to you? I guess I'm having a hard time believing that you can know what the Bible says about those things and still think they're not sinful. I think you have to take into account the principles Scripture teaches as well as the specific, spelled-out parts.
As for the other things listed, I'm right on track with you.
I'm curious what your response is to the cohabitation bit I posted earlier.
heb
alright. i've been holding back. honestly, right now at this very specific moment in time, i think everything is a part of the moral code. and not. i think that everything that a person can do is up for grabs. in fact, the most succinct way to say what i believe is to say that i think ANYTHING can be done in subjection to christ.
i have no doubt about what the scriptures say. what i disagree with are people's interpretations of scripture. for so long we have been teaching ourselves "doctrine." which is just another way of saying, "man's opinion on the scriptures". but yet we teach it as if it is what the book really means. as if we have "cracked the code" and now we teach that code to everyone and tell them it is the correct code and the only acceptable way you can interpret the book. any interpretations that go outside of these predetermined boundries are not acceptable. nevermind that you have nothing to do with the boundry deciding process. those things were decided for you by men long dead.
i just don't understand why we have to think that just because charles spurgeon said it, that makes it so. or augustine. or saint francis. or billy graham. or chuck swindoll. or chuck colson.
the list goes on and on. i'm not saying that these men can't offer us any sort of insight, but what i am saying is that these men are not god and what they say does not have to go. it is okay to disagree with them and take it another way if we so choose.
i believe the cross worked. i believe we are safe. i believe it encompassed everytihng everywhere and returned us to a "garden state."
because if adam and eve could live in this same world and they had no commandments for a while, and then only had one, to me it means that at that period of time, they could have done whatever they want and it wouldn't have been a "sin." they could have done ANYTHING but, and it would have been okay.
and i think we can have the same tihng again in this age of grace. but for some reason, we won't stop gorging ourselves on the knowledge of good and evil.
for us now, i believe that in the third age, the age of the spirit and the age of grace, we have been returned to that place of innocence in christ. to where we can do WHATEVER WE DESIRE. and it seems to me that the people who scream the loudest against this type of living are the people with the dirtiest hearts. they know what kind of shit would come out of them if they did whatever they wanted.
but other people actually learn how to do whatever they want and actually grow true biblical fruit all the while. always excelling in love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. and MOST of the people who i have met who exceed in these areas: 1.) honesty in everyday living in all areas of life AND 2.) growing in the characteristics of the fruit of the spirit are, surprisingly, NOT CHRISTIANS. obviously these old musty interpretations of an angry god shaking his fist and prohibiting things is old and dead and should be buried.
because that is just not the god i know. nor the god i want to know. the god i know says EVERYTHING IS PERMISSIBLE. most people love to rush to the second half of that verse. sit on the first half. realize it. let it roll around in honesty and let the complete peace of that statement warm your heart. then, in a state where everything is permissible, you begin to work out with god, what is beneficial. because i don't believe that things like "sexual immorality" or "fornication" necessarily are what everyone says they are. i think those are nebulous concepts that mean different things to different people and if, in your heart, you are crossing that line, then you ARE CROSSING THAT LINE. but if, in your heart, you are not crossing that line, then you ARE NOT CROSSING THAT LINE. and god knows that.
it doesn't matter what you do as much as why you are doing it. examining your actions in light of the two universals that we were given that still apply. once again.
“ ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
with no other human voice in your head, between you and god only in judgement, if you bring everything in your life and lay it out to be judged in the light according to these two things, i believe you can do ANYTHING. and by that i mean that if god gives it his seal of approval to use for the furtherance of his kingdom, we should ackowledge that as a possibility. instead of rejecting it out of hand saying things like, "god doesn't work in that way."
really? do we really think we've got god pinned down and figured out? the people throughout history who have thought that usually end up in the midst of some interesting situations where god acts "out of character."
and so i think that doctrine is actually a form of mental bondage sent by the enemy to keep us from mining the depths of god. it has to be. i'm not going to say that there aren't true brothers and sisters in churches. not by a long ways. but the nameless, faceless, public conception of "the church" and people who buy into it only produces bad, bad things. dark and evil and twisted things. so much hate and harrassment and hurt masquerading as "contending for the faith." doing whatever we can to steal other people's joy since we do not free ourselves to enjoy our own. since we're miserable, damn it, everyone needs to be miserable.
and i just think that's a fucked up way to live and conduct myself in a religion that is supposed to be about things that are the complete opposite. and i'm tired of people telling me that i'm the one who's fucked up. these things are real and we need to get it dealt with because we are going to have to account for our lives and what we did with all of this fredom. and i don't want my life to amount to torturing a bunch of other people using the bible.
it's not who i want to be identified with anymore. i want to be identified with the people who have no hope but to have someone who died for their sins because i am a sinner. i can't get away from it.
but i have a savior. so if i can use my sinful nature to get me closer to people who need the love of god and subvert satan's plan, i am all for it.
because that's what i think the father is all about when i look at jesus' life and ONLY jesus' life from the bible. he is the only human who ever lived who could honestly say, "i have shown you the father."
so i just try to gravitate to the place where my fruit grows brightest and juciest and is easiest to share and actually affect the world around me. in positive ways. in drawing near to someone and helping them make less self destructive choices through real teaching and NOT guilt for means of manipulation and control. freeing someone as opposed to throwing on one more chain.
i only have one life, and at the end of it, i have to answer for myself and myself alone. and as i take an honest look at everyone in the world, i have to ask. who do i really want to be identified with when only using the actual biblical principles as guides.
the two universals and the fruit of the spirit. where do you find those qualities the most, in truth and honesty, in your life?
the answer may just surprise you.
because once you find the answer to that, you know what to embrace and what to throw your life into, headfirst, with no fear. only peace.
Jon,
I appreciate your willingness to be candid and frank about your thoughts. I'm really, really interested in continuing our discussion of this. I've been thinking about what you stated in your last post for a while now, and how completely the world will BALK at it. You're so right about it not being accepted. I was involved in another meeting this morning with the ministry I work with and found myself caught between my struggles with what you've said here, and what they're saying about thumping the Bible in people's faces. I just kept my mouth shut, because I probably would have been kicked out if I'd offered up your ideas, and I'm not sure I could live with myself if I stuck with the traditional ones. Jon - you've really messed up my life!!!!! (I say that with a smile on my face!)
I feel like I'm in a place now where we can discuss this and not debate it. I'm curious about learning more of what you've been studying, because I still want to make these decisions for myself, but I must say, what you're offering is very compelling. The thing I don't want to get stuck on is basing this all on ONE verse - "Everything is permissable for me, but not everything is beneficial." I realize there's more to it than that, I'm just trying to be very cautious about what I take in.
Love, Heather
Two short thoughts to season the discussion:
1) The greek word for sin can be translated literally in the phrase "missing the mark" in the same way an arrow can miss the bull's-eye on a target.
2) I think that what Susan said earlier about not wanting to do things that displease God is very true. The more you know God and love God the more you don't want to do thinks that are self-destructive, selfish, and hurtful towards God, other people, or yourself. This is why I would be inclined to say that wanton drug use is "bad." Or that sexual immorality is wrong. It is "missing the mark" of God's holiness, hurting me, and hurting other people. And I think it is doing all this even above and beyond the culturally-placed, Christianized guilt. (Jon, I hate that phenomenon as much as you do, in fact, I have a word for it: being "churchy.") I think these things affect us in real, honest, and palatable ways, too, and that they are to be avoided. I think this is the second half of the statement "not everything is beneficial." Why would I want to do something to myself that is bad for me?!
But then again, we do that every day. We pollute the environment, we put preservatives in our food, we are selfish in our marriages, etc, etc.
PS--A professor of mine at Northwestern taught a class that sort of encapsulated what Jon is trying to say (though maybe not to the full extent that Jon is saying). The class was on Christian Hedonism.
I think even the phrase is something to ponder, because I think that we are meant to enjoy our lives (but not at the expense of hurting God, ourselves, and others).
It is refreshing to see someone else saying the things I have been saying and feeling for years. :-)
Christian Hedonism...I've never heard the phrase before, but that's a very interesting way to look at it.
So, Erin, you bring up the Greek definition of 'sin' as "missing the mark." I think that's a great definition. but it's definitely different from Jon's definition of sin as disobeying God. In saying that sin is disobedience, that means there are specific, spelled out guidelines that must never be crossed, that cover every aspect of life, which, of course, we know there's not, except for the two Greatest Commandments. then the rest is loosey goosey, as far as the "specifics" go.
Anyway, I think that's what it really comes down to, is how we define sin, and, as we can see, this is definitely up in the air.
H
this was absolutely delish! great to come home from a day at "fake work" and find four new progressions to read. so, erin, does this mean you're in? and by "in" i mean the conversation. have you been following along the whole time?
i'm sorry i don't have time for something more in depth today. we're in the middle of my 3 day long stint at work. i did want to say that i am happy we are here and that you can "hear" me. i know you experienced it today, heather, at your meeting. you know that not only if you opened your mouth would you not be "heard", but it is likely that in pressing the situation, any sort of bad thing could have happened. being the black sheep is not fun... but for the sake of truth and the kingdom...i will go anywhere. only now am i learning what jesus meant, "woe to you when all men speak well of you! for this is how your fathers treated the false prophets!"
and i'm glad you brought up the greek, erin! love to dig more into this there. and i will share more when i learn more. honestly, it has taken me a lifetime to be honest, like both of you, that these are things that have been inside of me, but have not expressed for fear of rejection. (turns out the fear was well founded) and all the same, i am only just coming to a place after a year of serious, fearless study where i am able to bring this from the inner realm of concepts (where no words are needed) and actually being able to put them into words. luckily, you both have obviously gone to the same places inside so few words are needed. (ironic, i know, but i could write stuff WAY longer than what i do now)
oh, and on one last note... as excited as i am at how much bigger the muscles in my index finger are getting than the rest of my fingers from scrolling down to get to the bottom of this... do you think you could start a new thread? doesn't even have to be a post. just a title so that we can have a new comment space to fill up with chatter.
do what you want, though. honestly. it's your blog, it's your freedom. i'll love you no matter what. i'm just saying, throw it in the background... swirl it around a bit. ask your index finger for some input. see what you come up with.
much love, jON
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